Hi everyone. Today’s #pblitchat was a goodie! We discussed point of view in picture books and looked at the pros and cons of 1st versus 3rd and the unusual, but sometimes effective, 2nd person. Our chat next week is on Twitter and the topic will be all about common plot patterns in PBs. We hope you can join us.
Now, on another note @KatApel and I are finding the super early morning starts rather impossible so we’re changing our Chatzy chats to 3.5 hours later. We’re sorry if it impacts you but we need to retain our sanity! LOL
Peter Taylor left this message:4:55
Good morning Kat. Well, it may be good if I could but see it…
KarenCollum joined the chat4:55
KarenCollum: Good morning!4:55
KarenCollum: Hi Peter. nice to see you. How are you calligraphy illos coming along?4:56
KatApel: Hi Peter. Sorry – I went and tweeted an alert. But I’m back. Great to see you bright and early. Hi Karen!4:57
KarenCollum: *yawn* ‘Tis very early… *yawn* again4:57
KarenCollum: Hello, Kat. *yawn*4:57
MeganKBickel joined the chat4:58
KatApel: Peter, if you click ‘Join Chat’ down the bottom of the screen it is easier to chatter.4:58
KarenCollum: Hi Megan!4:58
Peter Taylor left this message:4:58
Very slow. I’m in panic mode. The publisher is phoning from the UK today to discuss the cover so they can take something to the London Book Fair. No idea what they want to talk about. It comes out in time for next year’s fair, I think.
MeganKBickel: Hey there sleepy heads!4:58
KatApel: Hi Megan. I see you! Yaay. 
4:58
Peter Taylor joined the chat4:58
LadyJai joined the chat4:59
Peter Taylor: I haven’t been to bed. I’ll be sleepy later4:59
MeganKBickel: Yay! I can only stay for a bit, but I wanted to come!4:59
KatApel: Hi Jai. 4:59
KarenCollum: Hi LadyJai!4:59
MeganKBickel: Hi Jai!4:59
LadyJai: good morning to you Aussies, and afternoon to the others 
4:59
KarenCollum: @Peter Haven’t been to bed??! I couldn’t stay awake all night anymore…4:59
KarenCollum: The kookaburras are laughing hysterically outside my window. Reminds me of Kat’s gorgeous radio interview 4:59
pjamas joined the chat5:00
MeganKBickel: Jai – I’ve been playing around on that buriededitor board! I’ll post something soon on there.5:00
KatApel: Oh Peter. That sounds exciting. But I’m with Karen – I can’t do all nights anymore.5:00
pjamas: Hi everyone! *waves*5:00
KatApel: Hi Catherine/kanga/pyjamas.5:00
KarenCollum: Hi @pjamas/kanga!5:00
Peter Taylor: I used to sleep every other night 20 years ago. Only occasionally sleepless sessions now5:00
KarenCollum: @Megan @Jai – What’s buried editor?5:00
KarenCollum: @Peter That sounds rough! I need sleep every night – call me greedy 
5:01
LadyJai: @Megan good good! She’s the one I sub’ed Walter Bear to! Found out she has read it AND REMEMBERED IT!!! Now…my insides are all tumbly and making me sick to wait for her reply!5:01
MeganKBickel: @Karen it is a discussion board where folks are posting and critiquing summaries right now5:01
KarenCollum: @Jai Sounds very promising! Wonderful!5:01
LadyJai: @karen, she’s an indy Publisher and editor5:01
KatApel: Glad you’ve got the kookas there to cheer your early morning, Karen.5:01
KarenCollum: @Jai OK. good to know.5:01
pjamas: @karen I got some awesome fb from buriededitor today 5:01
MeganKBickel: website…HsOy7MNcWvK8JfGU15:02
KarenCollum: @Kat They are having a conversation with some cousins in the distance…5:02
MeganKBickel: oh that didn’t work5:02
KarenCollum: @pjamas That’s great news! So excited for you.5:02
LadyJai: try this, Megan http://cbaybooks.blogspot.com/2011/…5:02
Auntie_Flamingo joined the chat5:03
MeganKBickel: @Jai thanks! and that is awesome about your sub!5:03
pjamas: Hi @Auntie5:03
MeganKBickel: hey @auntie!5:03
Auntie_Flamingo: Good Morning Aussies….good afternoon All5:03
Janice D Green joined the chat5:03
KatApel: Buried Editor. That’s a cool name. I think many could relate. Excellent for fab feedback, Catherine, and for being remember, Jai. Woot!5:03
KarenCollum: Hi @Auntie. Good to see you hear. And @Janice too!5:03
pjamas: @ladyJai didn’t know you’d subbed Walter bear awesome sauce 
5:03
Auntie_Flamingo: hellp @pjamas5:03
Janice D Green: Hi all!5:03
KatApel: Hi Janice. Hi Auntie. Great to see you. 5:03
Auntie_Flamingo: Hello @Karen and @Kat5:04
LadyJai: Thanks Kat and yes, PJs I subbed it for her open sub call end of Jan. That’s why I was stressing so hard to get it done! 5:04
KarenCollum: Well, I think it’s time to begin…5:04
LadyJai: hi Janice and Auntie!5:04
Auntie_Flamingo: Great to ‘see’ you guys too5:05
Peter Taylor: Waving to all.5:05
KarenCollum: Some housekeeping: Please use the @ went replying directly to someone to help us track the convo5:05
KarenCollum: And keep your posts to one line so the conversation flows 5:05
Auntie_Flamingo: Hi @LadyJai5:05
LadyJai: Hi @Peter5:05
KatApel: While we’re waiting/waking… I managed to get a copy of my radio interview online. It’s here if you want to hear it… http://audioboo.fm/boos/298516-kata… Kookaburras and co-ows and all! 5:05
KarenCollum: (And you knew I meant ‘when’ not ‘went’, right? It is only 5am here!)5:05
KarenCollum: And remember a transcript of this will go up on the blog so keep that in the back of your mind when you’re posting5:06
Janice D Green: @Karen I couldn’t do the 5am. Hat’s off to you…5:06
KarenCollum: Our topic today is all about POV. 1st versus 3rd. 2nd? (At a stretch!)5:06
Peter Taylor: Are we all UK and Aussie?5:06
KatApel: And I have to say, I’m the worst one for the @anyone – especially at this hour of the morning!!! (I feel like I’m on delayed reaction.)5:06
pjamas: @karen on that note, can you delete comments at all once they are up?5:06
KarenCollum: @Janice It remains to be seen if I can do the 5am! LOL5:07
KarenCollum: @pjamas If there’s something you want removed from the transcript I can edit it out but it’s a whole lot easier if I don’t have to 5:07
MeganKBickel: I’ve done one in 2nd (London Brown – for my crit partners here) and I love it! So playful!5:07
Janice D Green: @Karen At least you are up. I’d still be doing zzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz5:07
KarenCollum: @pjamas So yes, it can be edited but you’ll need to let me know what you want removed5:07
pjamas: @Peter I’m Brit in Canada, but Canadians and US too here5:07
LadyJai: @Peter I’m in US5:08
KatApel: @Pjamas – that’s a good time to remind folk that the transcript does get posted to the picturebooksonly blog. So don’t be too specific in location or details…5:08
MeganKBickel: @Peter I’m in Indiana!5:08
KarenCollum: So, let’s get this #pblitchat party started. How do you think POV impacts on a manuscript?5:08
pjamas: @karen just checking, surely my useful posts don’t need deleting 5:08
Janice D Green: I’m USA @Magan Hi, I’m a transplanted Hoosier. I live in SC now5:08
KarenCollum: @pjamas LOL Everything you say is worth keeping, my dear!5:08
KatApel: It’s your CHEEK that needs editing, @pjamas. Hahahaha…5:09
MeganKBickel: @Janice I didn’t know that! Go Hoosiers! 5:09
pjamas: @kat never, boring!5:09
KarenCollum: @Janice Excuse my ignorance, but what is a Hoosier??5:09
MeganKBickel: I think POV is very integral to the tone5:09
Auntie_Flamingo: @Peter Canadian here5:09
KatApel: (Is cold, and buffetted by moths. And not wanting to return to the bedroom and wake the hubby… or turn any lights on…)5:09
pjamas: @Janice for some reason I thought you were a Brit5:10
KarenCollum: @Kat Hubby is having a restless night due to v sore arm so he is in recliner, which means I’m propped up in bed. No moths here…5:10
MeganKBickel: @Karen – just a term for someone from Indiana – great debate as to its origin!5:10
Janice D Green: @ Karen Someone from Indiana is called a Hoosier. Like people from Australia are called Aussies, I suppose5:10
LadyJai: I have a hard time discerning what type of POV I use. I think I do a lot of 3rd person limited…maybe…from what I’ve read and understand about POV5:10
Auntie_Flamingo: @Kat I never did get around to bloggin about that chat last week…or was it the week before..I will at some point5:10
pjamas: I think 1st or 2nd is good for dreamier pbs5:10
KarenCollum: @Megan @Janice Well, good to know! I’ve learned something today 5:10
LadyJai: I’ve never really played with different POVs. Are there any exercises to practice with or understand it better?5:11
KarenCollum: Let’s pick up on @Megan’s comment – what feel does 1st/2nd/3rd give a PB? Examples?5:11
KatApel: @Auntie – and I still haven’t ordered that Mac yet. I will… just need to decide on size. Wanted to downsize, but hubby thinks small screen will drive me crackers. Must see one before I order…5:11
pjamas: @ladyJai there’s loads of blog posts about it if you google pov5:11
KarenCollum: @Jai It’s something that took me a long time to get my head around5:11
MeganKBickel: I think 2nd is super playful and good for making the reader an interactive part of the book5:12
Janice D Green: 1st person brings the reader into a more personal level with the story right away.5:12
KarenCollum: My understanding is this: POV is all about whose eyes you are seeing the story through5:12
pjamas: @Jai I think I’ve only done third person limited too5:12
KatApel: @Jai – I think POV is a bit like tense. It’s probably something we do instinctively…. But I’m with you – haven’t consciously played with it much.5:12
KarenCollum: So if you use 3rd person limited, you are ONLY able to write what one person sees/feels/hears/thinks5:12
Peter Taylor: Can’t keep up – Great to meet everyone. I’m a Brit in Aus. 1st person gives immediacy5:12
MeganKBickel: In “Writing Picture Books” by Ann Whitford Paul, she has some POV exercises5:13
KarenCollum: 3rd person omniscient (sometimes used in fantasy & older books) is where you can hover above everybody & see everything5:13
KatApel: (Giggling at Peter. Yes – the transcript proves very useful. You get what you miss in the chat.)5:13
Auntie_Flamingo: @Kat maximize your screen. For the amount you write you need it! 5:13
MeganKBickel: Has anyone else done one in 2nd? I coulldn’t find much about it when writing mine5:13
KarenCollum: 1st person is where we embody the character & it’s written as ‘I’ – so that naturally limits what we ‘see’5:13
pjamas: @karen actually I think it’s the omniscient one I use not limited. Must read Anne’s book again5:13
KarenCollum: And 2nd is the Choose-Your-Own-Adventure style with ‘you’ – written directly to the reader5:14
KatApel: (@Auntie – that’s what we’re thinking. Likely go the 15# – which is sorta what I’ve got in the Dell. I run two pages or docs side-by-side…)5:14
KarenCollum: @Megan I haven’t tried one in 2nd. I suspect that it’s fairly unusual for a PB due to child developmental stage??5:14
Janice D Green: I think 2nd would be hardest to pull off.5:15
Auntie_Flamingo: “Pinkalicious” is writen in 1st person5:15
MeganKBickel: @Karen I think so too…but when it is done well, it is awesome!5:15
MeganKBickel: not sure I did it “well”!5:15
KarenCollum: @Megan Hard to write something with ‘you’ throughout that is representative & connects… But yes, done well it could be powerful5:15
KarenCollum: @Megan LOL5:15
Peter Taylor: @Janice Maybe the difficulty of 2nd is why mine is still in the bottom drawer5:16
KarenCollum: I had a PB that I really loved but it wasn’t working for me. Was written in 3rd but I rewrote it in 1st just to see what would happen5:16
pjamas: @megan I’m more excited to hear back from your subs than mine – weird!5:16
KatApel: First person creates a very powerful story – right into the characters emotions. Sometimes too powerful/overwhelming…5:16
MeganKBickel: @pjamas Ha! I wish I’d hear something too! 5:17
KarenCollum: It was great to rewrite in 1st and really made me think about the story…but in the end I went back to 3rd.5:17
KatApel: (For little people, in scary situations, I was thinking… the too powerful comment…)5:17
Peter Taylor: My latest is in 1st and someone likes it5:17
KarenCollum: @Kat I have read/heard that editors tend to like 3rd person for PBs because kids are able to separate themselves from the story5:17
pjamas: @Kat yes but it’s great in an imaginative story with Wizards and things5:17
MeganKBickel: I think rewriting in a different POV is a great exercise to play with your mss5:17
pjamas: @Megan here here5:18
KarenCollum: There’s an element of maturity involved in kids reading a PB in 1st and understanding that ‘me’ and ‘I’ is not them…5:18
KarenCollum: has anyone else heard of a preference of 1st/3rd?5:18
MeganKBickel: @Karen did you change your mind about your story when you re-wrote in different POV?5:18
LadyJai: @megan maybe a good thing to do to get to really know your character5:18
MeganKBickel: @Jai – yes!5:18
KarenCollum: @Megan I think by rewriting in diff POV I actually discovered the essence of my story so when I went back to 3rd it was much tighter5:19
Peter Taylor: @Megan Yes, rewrite in a different POV probably goes for all genres5:19
pjamas: Here you go: http://www.suite101.com/content/poi…5:19
KarenCollum: @Megan This story has been in development for almost 2 years & I finally subbed to an agent the other day 5:19
MeganKBickel: @Karen that is what happened to me too5:19
MeganKBickel: @Karen you go, girl! That’s awesome!5:19
KarenCollum: @Megan It didn’t work in 1st as well for some reason… funny how that happens!5:19
KatApel: @Karen Yes. Partly that maturity thing, and partly that overwhelming thing…5:19
MeganKBickel: @Peter I don’t know if I’d have the patience to re-write a YA or MG in a different POV, but at least partially!5:20
KarenCollum: @Kat Yes, 1st is so close, so emotionally intense that needs to be handled with care sometimes…5:20
KarenCollum: @Megan I read about authors rewriting whole books in diff POV and am amazed at their tenacity!5:20
MeganKBickel: @Karen I can’t imagine!5:20
Auntie_Flamingo: I couldn’t imagine rewriting my current rhyming PB in 1st person. Rhyming would be difficult I think.5:20
KarenCollum: What are some of your favourite 1st person PBs?5:21
pjamas: And another http://letthewordsflow.wordpress.co…5:21
Auntie_Flamingo: That would really work my brain I think LOL5:21
Peter Taylor: Mine has been changed many times over 11 years, and only just rewriiten it in 1st and it now works5:21
KatApel: @PJs Yes – there are some times when 1st person is better. And probably more often in books for the slightly older kids.5:21
KarenCollum: @Auntie I think sometimes it’s easier to go from 1st to 3rd in a rewrite than the other way around…5:21
MeganKBickel: @auntie oh yes, rhyme would be hard to re-write5:21
KarenCollum: @Peter That’s great.5:21
KatApel: @Peter. Don’t you love it when you know you’ve got it right! What age group is your for?5:22
Auntie_Flamingo: One of my 1st person favs “Pinkalicious” @Karen5:22
KatApel: (yours)5:22
MeganKBickel: @Karen my fav 1st person is “Eloise”5:22
Peter Taylor: @Kat About 3-45:22
KarenCollum: @Auntie I’m not familiar with that one… Or ‘Eloise’, @Megan. I must get out more! LOL5:22
KarenCollum: @Kat I’m trying to think of any Aussie 1st person PBs… Katrina Germein’s MY DAD THINKS HE’S FUNNY is in 1st.5:23
KatApel: (I will be very quiet because my head spins when I try to think of specifics… Favourites? Not for me today… Unless they pop into my head.)5:23
KarenCollum: And Janeen Brian’s beautiful I SPY DAD5:23
Auntie_Flamingo: @Karen I also Love Love Love “What Ever You Do Don’t Go Near That Canoe!” which is a 1st person rhyming PB5:23
MeganKBickel: @Karen “Eloise” was written like 40 years ago and is over 3000 words, but it is AMAZING!5:23
Peter Taylor: @Megan My 1st is in rhyme. It seemed so obvious after I’d done it.5:23
KarenCollum: @Megan Wow! that’s one big PB!!5:23
KatApel: @Karen Oh yes! And I’ve been reading that often!! MY DAD THINKS HE’S FUNNY.5:23
KarenCollum: @Auntie Canoe one sounds very cute – *taking notes*5:24
MeganKBickel: @Peter Isn’t that funny how the obvious is the hardest to get to?!5:24
KarenCollum: Would you say 3rd is more common than 1st?5:24
KarenCollum: I’m thinking that 3rd is almost the default POV…5:24
MeganKBickel: I hate to leave this discussion, my friends, but I must. 
5:25
pjamas: @Auntie that sounds awesome canoe story5:25
KarenCollum: How do you decide which POV you’re going to write from?5:25
KatApel: Question… What do you call ‘Don’t Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus’? Because from my remembering, it’s dialogue the whole story… Is that first person???5:25
LadyJai: I am thinking for PBs that 3rd is most common5:25
MeganKBickel: Look forward to the transcript for more!5:25
KarenCollum: @Megan Thank you so much for being here! Have a great day5:25
pjamas: @megan bye!5:25
Janice D Green: @ Megan Bye Hope to see you again here5:25
LadyJai: @megan Bye! Great to see you5:25
Peter Taylor: @Megan Yes, you get an idea and then keep working on the same old, same old…5:25
Auntie_Flamingo: @Karen @pjamas Oh it is a good book. Looking for a like for ya5:25
MeganKBickel: It’s been lovely!5:26
Auntie_Flamingo: Bye @Megan5:26
KarenCollum: @Kat. Good question. If it’s dialogue with ‘she said’ then it would be 3rd. But straight dialogue would make it first, no? #tooearlytothinkstraight5:26
KatApel: @Karen – I usually start the story. If it flows and feels right then I’m in the right POV. If it’s missing the point, then I (instincitvely) play around. I can’t say it’s actually a conscious ‘I must play with POV.’.5:26
KarenCollum: When you get an idea for a PB does it ‘arrive’ with a POV attached? Or do you make a conscious decision.5:26
LadyJai: @kat @ Karen wouldn’t straight dialog be considered a script?5:27
Janice D Green: I just thought of an example of some 2nd person books… The books in the series “If you Give a Mouse a Cookie” “If You Give a Moose a Muffin” and so on…5:27
KarenCollum: @Lady Good question! I’m not familiar with the book so can’t say. I was thinking dialogue in first as in retelling to someone what has happened…5:27
Auntie_Flamingo: @Karen Depends. If it is all “he said” / “She said” then it’s 3rd5:27
KatApel: @Karen – I think it’s more denoted by location of speech bubbles – denoting who says what… In my remembering… A bit like that book… ‘Duck Rabbit’ (or whatever it is called).5:28
KarenCollum: @Janice Yes! And they work really well. I wonder if that’s really real 2nd person though?5:28
Auntie_Flamingo: @Karen In 1st person someone could be talking about someone else talking5:28
KarenCollum: IF YOU GIVE A MOOSE A MUFFIN – is that someone talking about their experiences? like a silent narrator? Who uses ‘you’ as a generic term?5:28
KarenCollum: @Auntie LOL This is getting confusing!!5:29
Auntie_Flamingo: @Janice Yes those are great examples!5:29
KatApel: @Karen @Jai – The speech bubbles come from different sides of the page. Hmm… With pigeon, He has his speech bubble, and I think the other speech bubble comes from out of the book. A form of 1st person, I’m thinking…5:29
Janice D Green: @Karen It is continually telling what would happen if “you” did this or that.5:29
KarenCollum: IF YOU GIVE A MOOSE A MUFFIN – or is it like CYOA books where ‘you’ are the main character?5:29
KarenCollum: @Janice I love those stories and think they’re very clever.5:30
KatApel: (Bye Megan. I am a bit slow/one-tracked this morning… Reading back…)5:30
Janice D Green: I suppose the Mouse or the Moose would really be the main character, but the reader is brought into the story in a hypothetical sense.5:30
KarenCollum: I’d be curious to hear an editor’s perspective on IF YOU GIVE A MOOSE A MUFFIN…5:30
Auntie_Flamingo: FYI: Whatever You Do, Don’t Go near That Canoe! Link: http://tinyurl.com/6yg4ata5:31
KarenCollum: I have tweeted a Q about IF YOU GIVE A MOOSE A MUFFIN to see if anyone answers…I’m really interested in that one.5:32
KatApel: Note to self: Ask library if we have IF YOU GIVE A MOOSE A MUFFIN.5:32
KatApel: Thanks for link @Auntie5:32
KarenCollum: What are the advantages/disadvantages of 3rd/1st?5:32
KarenCollum: @Kat It’s a circular story – If you give a moose a muffin then he’ll ask for a glass of milk. If you give him a glass of milk he’ll ask for etc until you come back to a muffin again!5:32
Janice D Green: The author’s name is Numeroff for the If you …. series. There are several books in it.5:33
pjamas: @Karen 1st is very limited, you have to be right there all the time5:33
KarenCollum: @pjamas So 1st is that intense, focussed POV – for close up experience?5:34
KatApel: @PJs You’re right. There is much of the story that you can’t show. Because you’re not experiencing it for yourself. Which is what makes it so powerful – but not for many situations. (1stP)5:34
KarenCollum: @Kat handle 1st person POV with care, then?5:34
KatApel: Thanks @Karen! #Muffin5:34
pjamas: @kare I guess so, I’m going to go and see if George Ella Lyon writes in 1st, i love her dreamy style5:34
KarenCollum: What about 3rd person limited as opposed to omniscient?5:35
pjamas: @Karen where did the n go?5:35
Auntie_Flamingo: I think 1st person can make it hard to describe the main character.5:35
KatApel: @Karen – I think there’s a time and place for 1st person, and you’ll know it. In other situations you just can’t tell the story that’s there for the telling. I think for little people it would need to be a reassuring story.5:35
KarenCollum: Am thinking there are many PBs in omniscient 3rd where we get to see diff characters doing diff things & they eventually come together…5:35
Peter Taylor: 1st can be good for going on a journey, but the illustrator has freedom to show different perspectives5:36
KarenCollum: @Peter WE’RE GOING ON A BEAR HUNT is in 1st and is just divine.5:36
pjamas: @kat the writer can only access the thoughts and feelings of one character (3rd limited) see my 2nd link5:36
Auntie_Flamingo: @Karen Yes #bearHunt5:37
KarenCollum: I know one of my PBs is definitely 3rd person omniscient where I have 4 neighbours who don’t know each other experiencing similar thing.5:37
KatApel: A 1st person story for little people would need to be careful they don’t get too lost, or too scared/lonely. Yes. More like Peter said. A journey. An adventure. (And good point. Illo can fill in the gaps.)5:37
pjamas: @kat I am trying to write one with very few words, I’d love it to be 1st person5:38
Peter Taylor: Or doing particular activities until…5:38
Auntie_Flamingo: Writing a story in 1st POV would have to be writen in chronological order, wouldn’t it?5:39
KarenCollum: Sometimes I find it hard to know if it’s 3rd limited or 3rd omniscient. So few words make it hard to truly identify… or is it just me? LOL5:39
Auntie_Flamingo: At least in 3rd POV you can say “Meanwhile….”5:39
KatApel: OH! Lightbulb moment. I thinking that my current rural rhymer PB must be in some form of first person. As in the child is telling the story – but it’s actually happening to Dad. Child only has an ‘I said’ moment at the end.5:39
KarenCollum: @Auntie Depends if your character is remembering something or not…5:39
pjamas: @Karen same here 5:39
pjamas: @Karen rural rhymer is that a new genre?5:40
KarenCollum: I think like a few people said earlier we instinctively understand POV but it’s certainly something that befuddles me occasionally!!5:40
Peter Taylor: @ Auntie I’ve nbeen told ‘meanwhile’ is hard for young children to keep track5:41
Auntie_Flamingo: @Karen true. But if something else is going on they don’t know about then I would think it would have to be written in 3rd?5:41
KarenCollum: And I think it’s good to stretch our creative selves and our brains to really get our heads around it – once we understand it better we can use it to our advantage5:41
KatApel: @PJs Heehee… It’s what I write a lot of. My rhyming PBs with a rural Aussie setting. I call them my rural rhymers. New Genre? I hope it takes off!!!5:41
pjamas: @Kat lol5:41
pjamas: @Kat Right rural rhymers5:42
KatApel: (Hubby just staggered out. I thought early birds were supposed to be bright and chirpy. He don’t look so bright yet. And he moaned/mumbled – didn’t chirp.)5:42
Janice D Green: @Kat LOL5:42
KarenCollum: @Auntie Yes – I think that’s the key. In PBs where the MC isn’t aware of something but the kids are, it’s generally 3rd (unless illos show hidden thing?)5:42
KarenCollum: @Kat hehe. I’m sure he’ll start chirping soon 5:43
Peter Taylor: @ Kat Like Rural Rhymers5:43
Auntie_Flamingo: @Kat Yay! A little tidbit about her work in progress5:43
KarenCollum: That’s an interesting point that @Auntie raised…5:43
KatApel: @Peter. I think that’s where you’d need your illos again. And likely not your meanwhile, @Auntie. More an inferred meanwhile…5:43
KarenCollum: I think a PB is rather unique in that it can be written in 1st with only limited knowledge of happenings BUT illos can provide 3rd perspective & hence add tension/suspense that otherwise wouldn’t be there5:44
pjamas: @kat ooh that’s a good one, inferred meanwhile.5:44
KarenCollum: Now THAT is a revelation for me in understanding why PBs are so powerful!5:44
Janice D Green: I suspect that one more serious problem is not understanding POV to the point you bounce around from one to another in a story without realizing it.5:44
Auntie_Flamingo: @Peter Good point #meanwhile. I’ve never used it in a PB but it could be used in a MG or YA (and yes, I know thie is pblitcha )5:44
KatApel: I will not say ANY more about my rural rhymer – just to drive @Aunti wild with speculation and curiosity. Except to say that after I finished it last night (yet again) I staggered out at 11pm to write MORE. ‘Good’ stuff. 5:44
KarenCollum: @Janice Yes. I agree. I’ve seen a few manuscripts where POV has shifted & it’s very disconcerting!5:45
Peter Taylor: I wrote a very silly pb called The Wind Goes On Holiday’ (couldn’t be illustrated), but I hoped the illos would be placed like strip cartoons in two layers5:45
KatApel: @Auntie. *puffs up* Feel like I know something… 5:45
pjamas: @Kat ooh exciting! when can we swap our novels in verse (only joking- so hard to get a beta reader for rhyme)5:46
KarenCollum: One of the most common mistakes I’ve seen is people putting in asides in an authorial voice that is all of a sudden pulls you out of the story. Does that make sense?5:46
KatApel: @Janice. YES!!!5:46
pjamas: @Peter, that sounds ace!5:46
KarenCollum: I guess it comes back to the whole narrator concept.5:46
Auntie_Flamingo: *arms crossed* Humph ! *not liking @Kat right now* 5:46
KarenCollum: POV is who is narrating your story and how much do they know.5:46
KatApel: (It’s raining. And the sun has cast light about. I can even see hubby’s spray tractor… Just so you know. No longer black-as-night…)5:47
KarenCollum: Still find it fascinating that there can be a significant gap between what author knows/presents in text & what illustrator can show.5:47
KarenCollum: @Kat Been light here for a long time. You must be a lot further west than me…5:47
Janice D Green: @Karen Yes. I took a novel writing course online once, and that’s where I became more aware of following the main character and not writing about something the MC wouldn’t know or see.5:47
KatApel: (Ooops. Excuse me. I was puffing up from @PJs’ comment – not @Auntie’s. ‘goodone’5:47
Auntie_Flamingo: *pokes @Kat hoping to pop a hole and watch her fly around the chat room as she deflates*5:48
KarenCollum: @Janice I’ve come to a deeper understanding from writing longer stuff as well but it still addles my brain on occasions!5:48
KatApel: @Karen – No. I thinking I can only do one thing at a time at this hour. And I was chatting… 5:48
pjamas: @kat oh I get it now, was lost on the puffs up at first 5:48
pjamas: The Wind is going on holiday here 5:49
KarenCollum: Just out of curiosity, your current favourite WIPS – what POV are they in ?5:49
pjamas: @Kat oh no I so meant the puffed up comment (get these deleted 5:49
pjamas: @karen 3rd omniscient5:50
KatApel: @Janice @Karen Yes – the longer writing would be more tempting to switch person (and tense).5:50
KarenCollum: @pjamas oooooh, so you’ve got multiple characters & are showing everything to the reader?5:50
Auntie_Flamingo: @Karen 3rd5:50
KarenCollum: Although I tend to write more in 3rd, my latest submission is in 1st. Publisher considering one in 3rd, though…5:51
LadyJai: Sooooo sorry to have dropped off radar….my conference call demanded my attention. I need to quit now. I’ll read the transcript later. Sorry again5:51
Peter Taylor: I might try changing my 3rd to 1st, just to see what happens5:51
KarenCollum: I wonder if we should set homework? Get all serious like? Over the next little while we could all try changing 1st to 3rd or other way around & see what impact it has on the story5:52
KarenCollum: @Peter You read my mind 5:52
Janice D Green: @Karen I have one that is split into two parts, both in 1st person but different persons telling the same story.5:52
KarenCollum: @Jai Thanks for being here and multi-tasking. Have a great day5:52
Peter Taylor: I wonder if individual editors have preferences?5:52
Auntie_Flamingo: I’ve had an idea about one in 1st for some time but I haven’t stared it. I might save it for #NaPiBoWriWee in May5:52
KatApel: I mostly write in 3rd person omniscient. But I also have a few in that ‘recounted through the child’s eyes’ person… Some form of 1st???5:52
KarenCollum: @Janice that’s very interesting! How are you differentiating between the ‘I’s in the story?5:53
KatApel: @Auntie – or right it now and make yourself think of another for May? 5:53
Janice D Green: @ Karen It’s treated like two separate stories about the same incident5:53
KarenCollum: @Kat LOL You’ve just created a new POV – through the child’s eyes Suspect it’s a form of 1st although limited 3rd is through child’s eyes but one step removed5:53
KatApel: See you Jai. Lovely to have you for most of the chat. *waves*5:53
KarenCollum: @Janice How do you manage the transition between the two?5:53
Auntie_Flamingo: @Kat good point. What I really would like to do is finish this one I’ve been working on forever.5:54
Auntie_Flamingo: @Kat I took it out at lunch to work on it and the student working for us needed help and I never got to it 5:54
Janice D Green: @Karen One starts at the back of the book turned upside down. Have you seen the book, The Pain and the Great One by Betsy Byars?5:54
KatApel: @Auntie – Maybe if you start another it will work to untangle the first as well. Do you have a couple on the go at once? To flit between?5:54
Auntie_Flamingo: @Janice sounds interesting. I’d like to see how that works5:55
KarenCollum: @Janice Very clever! not familiar with that book but have seen it done with novels.5:55
pjamas: oops i’m back, had a puppy emergency5:55
KarenCollum: @Janice I actually bought a junior novel for my niece’s birthday a few weeks ago – had same story from 2 POVs – one at each end of the book.5:55
KatApel: I took mine to town (hubby drove) and wrote for the hr there and then back again. But got MORE done yesterday in the 10mins driving home from work. Boys scribed as I dictated, just in case. DIDN’T want to forget it!!5:56
KarenCollum: @Janice Also had a sealed section in the middle you could only read once you’d read both sides. Suspect that will be joint perspective but wonder what POV it’s written in. 3rd?5:56
pjamas: @karen that’s a great idea (HW) how about three months time 5:56
KarenCollum: @Kat Another reason why it will be great when my kids are big enough to write. “Write this down for me, quick!”5:56
Janice D Green: I just got a critique on this book and will probably completely re-write one of the POVs. It fell flat on one side.5:57
KarenCollum: @Janice At least the other side is great! You’re halfway there 5:57
KarenCollum: @pjamas I think it’s good to have a challenge every now and then.5:57
KatApel: @PJs @Karen … I missed the HW comment…5:57
pjamas: @kat that’s awesome, i bet my son would do that for me (hurry up and learn to write!)5:57
Janice D Green: @Karen Thanks5:58
KatApel: Oh. That’s funny. Now I’ve found it. *Karen cracks whip* – or WIP?5:58
Auntie_Flamingo: Still waiting for @Kat to drop another tidbit about her WIP *sigh*5:58
Peter Taylor: @Kat @Karen Make the most of them – mine take the car and come home the next day5:59
pjamas: @Karen it would be nice to have a follow-up chat and say how it went changing pov in one of our stories5:59
KatApel: Had to catch it while I could, because I’d finally found words to fit the rhythm/rhyme – and I’m sure those two lines gave me my headache the day before!! (Boys scribing in car.)5:59
Janice D Green: @Kat Sounds like a cool plan. I’m afraid in my case I’ll have to write it myself or use a recording. If I’m driving my hubby is asleep. If he’s driving he keeps me busy or has a radio going.5:59
KarenCollum: @Kat LOL @pjamas Good idea.6:00
Janice D Green: @Kat PS no kids now. we’re grandparents with gkids too far away.6:00
KarenCollum: Well, I think we’re out of time. Thank you for being here and stretching my brain this early in the morning.6:00
KatApel: @Auntie… My lips are sealed. *smug* #haughty 6:00
Auntie_Flamingo: @Kat funny how ideas come when your can’t write them down. Driving, in the shower…6:00
KarenCollum: Would anyone like to come and look after my kids & get eldest off to school so I can go back to sleep now? No? Oh. 6:01
pjamas: @Kat you can not do #haughty too nice 6:01
Auntie_Flamingo: I still love you anyway @Kay 6:01
Auntie_Flamingo: @Kat6:01
Auntie_Flamingo: oops6:01
KatApel: Great chat. Will have to go and look over some of my PBs now and define them in terms of POV…6:01
Janice D Green: @Karen You paying the fare?6:01
pjamas: @Karen would if I could thank you both @Kat bye!6:01
KarenCollum: @Janice LOL I was hoping you might be able to be teleported here 6:01
KatApel: Love you too, @Auntie. 6:02
KarenCollum: Have a great Thursday/Friday, folks. See you on Twitter next week.6:02
Janice D Green: Thanks all for an interesting chat6:02
Peter Taylor: Many thanks everyone6:02
KarenCollum: For our chat, that is. I’ll prob see most of you on Twitter before then!6:02
KarenCollum: @Peter Go and get some sleep now!6:02
Janice D Green: Esp Kat & Karen who keep this going6:02
KarenCollum: Oh, before you all disappear6:02
KatApel: Chat during the week. Better now get things happening… or reread that little rural rhymer. Giggle giggle… @Auntie6:02
KarenCollum: Would it bother any of you greatly if we made this about 3 hours/3.5 hours later?6:03
KarenCollum: Would make it far more palatable for @Kat and I!!6:03
KatApel: YES! If it works for you guys???6:03
KarenCollum: Would mean an 8:30am start for us as opposed to 5am…6:03
Janice D Green: @Karen I think that would be better for me. I’d be more likely to be home.6:03
KarenCollum: @Kat May has missed Kanga, Megan & Jai… Will have to send them a message.6:04
KatApel: And 8:30am gets the kids off to school and into #pblitchat6:04
Janice D Green: @Karen Today I had to rush home from a trip out-of-town.6:04
KarenCollum: @Janice Great. We’ll let you know if we do. I’m thinking we will…6:04
KarenCollum: @Janice Thanks for making the effort 6:04
Auntie_Flamingo: @Karen that would be 5:30 PM here so I’d be just getting home from work and making dinner. We could try it.6:04
KatApel: @Karen. I’ll send them an email… and then I’ll send a general email after I’ve heard from them. Give them heads-up first…6:04
Janice D Green: @Karen It is the first I’ve been able to make in 2011.6:05
KatApel: @Auntie – that would be a good night for hubs to make dinner. 6:05
Janice D Green: @Kat Sounds like a plan!6:05
Auntie_Flamingo: @Kat hubby does make dinner a lot.6:05
Janice D Green: @Auntie Mine too. He just started a couple of months ago and it’s been fantastic!6:06
Peter Taylor: I’m usually sleeping at 5am.6:06
KarenCollum: @Kat just sent a tweet asking… if it suits most people or is a possibility then i say we go for it!6:06
Auntie_Flamingo: 7 would be better – for me anyway. 5 hours later than today’s chat6:06
KarenCollum: @Auntie We start having issues with cutting into middle of the day if we go much later6:06
Janice D Green: @ Auntie It helped that I photo’ed the meals and posted them on Facebook! 6:06
Auntie_Flamingo: so I guess that would be 10 am for you guys6:06
KarenCollum: @Auntie But @Kat and I will have a think/chat about it. Thanks!6:07
Auntie_Flamingo: @Janice, because of the daycare costs I’m paying hubby had to buy groceries and started planning meals and cooking them6:07
Janice D Green: @Auntie It’s great that he is willing to do that.6:08
Auntie_Flamingo: @Janice he was also trying to lose wiegh so it helped for him to plan the meals. He lost 95 pounds in less than a year6:08
Janice D Green: @Auntie I hope he’s a good cook.6:08
KarenCollum: I’m off, ladies. Miss H will need a feed soon & I need to get showered & dressed. Enjoy your day. xx6:08
Auntie_Flamingo: Sure @Karen of course. Whatever works best for you guys. Just thought I’d put my 2 cents in 6:08
Auntie_Flamingo: @Janice Yes, he’s great!6:09
Peter Taylor: Have fun, one and all. Yep I’m away too6:09
Auntie_Flamingo: Have a good day everyone!6:09
Auntie_Flamingo left the chat6:09
Janice D Green: Bye @Karen. I need to get going as well. @Auntie That’s wonderful.6:09
Janice D Green: Bye all It’s been fun6:10
(As a postscript, I had a discussion with some other writer friends & they felt that IF YOU GIVE A MOOSE A MUFFIN isn’t 2nd person in the true sense. The word ‘you’ is being used as a colloquial form of ‘anyone of the human variety’ rather than the reader being the main character in the book. I thought that was a good explanation!)
